Podcast: How do we become an ecocity?

CHRIS HATZIS
Eavesdrop on Experts, a podcast about stories of inspiration and insights. It's where expert types obsess, confess and profess. You’ll meet people who you wouldn’t normally meet, but will be glad you did. I’m Chris Hatzis. Let’s eavesdrop on experts and see how these 21st century explorers are changing the world… one lecture, one experiment, one interview at time.

It’s an uncharacteristically beautiful sunny day in Melbourne and a great opportunity to escape from the office into an urban oasis – Lincoln Square, a park just south of the University of Melbourne’s main campus. Even though we’re amongst the hustle and bustle of city life – trams, commuters, buses and helicopters, there’s a certain tranquillity when coming down to the park to sit under the massive Moreton Bay fig trees.

Our reporter Dr Andi Horvath is here to have a chat with Dr Seona Candy – an academic at Architecture, Building and Planning at the University of Melbourne, and an expert in the importance of urban green areas. Seona is talking about food and water systems at the Ecocity World Summit in July 2017 – a conference that will bring together councillors, academics and business to discuss how we can make our cities healthier, happier and more environmentally sustainable – or, in Seona’s words, how we can create resilient cities.

DR ANDI HORVATH
We're sitting here on a picnic table in the middle of the city, and the city is Melbourne, Australia. There are helicopters going, you're going to hear fire engines, there's a bus stop just there and we're in among a whole lot of high rises. Seona Candy, you're someone who's involved in this ecocity future, which means taking cities to a new sustainable and, in your words, resilient future. 

DR SEONA CANDY 
At the moment, I'm a research fellow in resilient urban systems, with a particular kind of interest and experience in food systems analysis, food security and integration of urban systems. The city is a complex thing. There's lots of different systems and I think there's a potential for these different systems to interact to make a city more resilient. So, for example, we have our urban gardens but we also have our peri-urban agriculture, for example. So it's not just about community gardens and that kind of thing. Most - like the powerhouse of our food production comes from peri-urban areas. But what we also have to do in the city is we've got issues with water, both not enough and too much at times, particularly with climate change coming on and all that kind of thing. We've also got waste management which is a massive logistical exercise. So getting - I think there's, what is it, something like 1.7 million households in Melbourne and every one of them has to get a bin emptied once a week.

But I see, particularly around the areas of food and water or even energy, that there's so much opportunity for these things to take up some of the slack and turn waste into something we can actually use. So the outputs of one system can actually be the inputs of another. So could we harness our stormwater and water our gardens? Could we use our food waste, compost? Could we use it for urban biogas to power our buses like they do in many other places? I think there's just so much opportunity. These initiatives, these I suppose sustainability initiatives, on their own in individual systems are all well and good, but often not considered feasible because - if they're operating in isolation. But what I want to find out is, if you link them together, do they become more feasible because you're taking the waste and you're putting it in to something else.

DR ANDI HORVATH
Now in 2017 in Melbourne is going to be a huge international conference about the ecocity. Is this the city of the future or the city of the now that we want to see happening? Is this the discussion that brings together all these systems?

DR SEONA CANDY 
Look, I think ecocity is probably a fairly broad term. It can mean a lot, a lot of things. Traditionally I suppose it's - when people say eco, they think of environmental outcomes and they think of sustainability. But I suppose these days eco is not just about sustainability and maybe reducing our footprint, but it's also about actually changing the structure of our cities to make us more adaptable, more resilient. So it's not just about tinkering around the edges, an ecocity is about transforming cities.

DR ANDI HORVATH
So what are your current research adventures? What are you doing with some of your students?

DR SEONA CANDY 
So I'm working on two that are around - that are funded by the Cooperative Research Centre for Low Carbon Living, so they're around low-carbon cities. One is called the Visions and Pathways project and it's about bringing together stakeholders from the built environment area and bringing them together and trying to put together visions of what a low-carbon city would look like in 2040. We've actually produced four separate visions. So they're different, but all of these visions have seeds in the present. So at the moment now we're working - we've got the visions for 2040 but now we're working on the pathways, what is it going to take to get us there. Another project I'm working on is looking at - again, it's a low-carbon city project. I'm working with six students and we're looking at urban interventions for low-carbon cities, but that also have implications for resilience. So a particular focus on distributed systems.

So in our cities we've typically in history had centralised - you know, like our power is produced in one great, big power plant and trucked in, our water's collected in one big damn and piped in, and all that kind of thing. But distributed network cities is where we actually start to either produce or gather or generate resources within our cities. So it's this concept of what they call a prosumer. So previously we're consumers, right. In cities, all the stuff that we need gets trucked in and we consume it and then our waste goes out. But what prosumers do is they actually produce some of the stuff that they consume. So this is whether we produce, to some extent, some of our own food if we have an urban garden; not saying that that's the solution to food security. Or do we collect some of our own rainwater, do we generate some of our own energy? So to kind of offset the centralised systems that have historically supplied our cities.

DR ANDI HORVATH
I'm going to be the grumpy devil's advocate, but is this too hard to do? I mean there are companies out there that are just interested in profit, there'd be body corporates that just go too hard, can't afford. There must be a dissenting voice.

DR SEONA CANDY 
Absolutely. I mean you - the uptake of rooftop solar has been amazing over the past few years. So that kind of thing, people are actually really interested in taking a bit back, taking control. There's microgrids already popping up. These are the seeds of change that we're looking for, this is for our pathways that are going to lead to better cities in the future. So there's a microgrid on the outskirts of the city, say in Mooroolbark, which is - it's grid connected, but it's mostly just people sharing batteries, solar panels, all that kind of thing. So with new technologies coming in, we've got to figure out ways to incorporate them into the social fabric of the city. So you can't just plonk a technology in there and expect it to work. So this is where the study of resilient urban systems is very much: a city is a socio, ecological, technological system. So it's all these things intermixed and you can't deal with one and not incorporate the other.

So part of a resilient city is also building awareness in the community. Bringing - finding these prosumers or finding the ones who are interested in becoming prosumers and working out how these different systems can actually fit into their lives. Because there's going to be some give and take on either side. Maybe the give or take just happens. So one of my students is doing a project where he's looking for people, he's setting up a simulated microgrid amongst groups of about six houses. So they each have a little dooverlackie in their house which tells them - it connects to their smart meter, it tells them how much they could - simulated - be producing in this microgrid that links all these six houses. But what he's really looking into is, if these people have some awareness of the potential - and what they can see is in their microgrid, this simulated microgrid, whether they're going over or under their allotted power or the power that's available to them.

So then he wants to see if that will actually bring down consumption. So people actually being able to manage their own power - bring down - you know, we have some of the highest energy use in the world and the highest carbon footprint in Australia per capita. So will this actually change that? Because it's got to come from both ends; not just production, it's got to come from consumption.

DR ANDI HORVATH
I'm ashamed for our fellow Australians, we're going to have to get our act together. Okay, Seona, let's start retrofitting some of the city here. We can see various style buildings, ranging back from the '70s, '80s, definitely some built this century, some really beautiful ones, colourful ones as well. We're here in the middle of Melbourne, let's start retrofitting, let's fix things. Where do we start, Seona?

DR SEONA CANDY 
Well, I would start looking at some of the older buildings and the older building stock for things like rooftop gardens. They're particularly good because those buildings are typically over designed, so they're strong enough to retrofit a rooftop garden. So that would be one thing I would see. Maybe these new apartment buildings that are less over-designed, I'd want to see plants hanging over their balconies, vines growing up the side. It doesn't have to be one of those amazing, but sometimes quite complicated, green façades. You can have vines growing up buildings. They have it - there's a couple of - non-destructive vines. That green kind of skin, it would improve the urban heat island impact.

DR ANDI HORVATH
Urban heat island?

DR SEONA CANDY 
Yeah, so the urban heat island effect is basically when a city doesn't cool down at night. We've all experienced that on a hot summer's day when the sun goes away but it's still hot. This is because what happens in a city is that the sun comes down and it gets absorbed by all the concrete and whatever that we have in a city. Unlike in the country where it's still hot during the day, but at night when the sun goes away there's not all this stored heat in the area. So in the country it's much cooler in the evening in summers that it is in the cities because all that heat can dissipate. What happens in the cities is that all that heat that's stored in all the buildings and the roads and the concrete surfaces and all that kind of thing then starts to radiate back. So even when the sun's gone away, it radiates between all these surfaces, so it never actually leaves the city and it stays hot. So then the next day when the sun comes out again, it just heats up even more. So it kind of builds and builds and builds on itself. That is a key problem, definitely in the city of Melbourne and many other cities that are in warmer climates, is this issue of urban heat island.

DR ANDI HORVATH
So we've got to take - be cool, literally. Alright, so we can fix our buses by giving them different fuels, we can fix our buildings. What else is on your to-do list? I'm making you emperor of Australia.

DR SEONA CANDY 
[Laughs] I definitely want to see more green spaces. Because that - it helps with a general wellbeing to have green spaces rather than just all concrete. Aside from that, it helps with this urban heat island effect because it's one of these areas in a city that's not going to store all that heat that's going to make it really, really hot. It's also really great for stormwater management. Green space, green area or permeable paving or whatever kind of water sensitive urban design features you put, it's a - rain events are going to become shorter and sharper and so we're going to have a lot of water to deal with. Anyone who's been down the end of Elizabeth Street, near Flinders Street station in Melbourne, has seen what it looks like when there's a serious rainfall event because there's knee-deep water. Because that's actually - Elizabeth Street used to be a river before it was a street. So this is why the natural environment is saying, well actually, no, I'm going to do what I want.

So this is where, like in this park that we're sitting in now, Lincoln Square, the City of Melbourne has actually put in stormwater tanks underneath the park. So this is a way of stormwater storage to stop the problem happening down the bottom of Elizabeth Street. But also storing that water so that when it's the middle of summer and they want to water this lovely green grass that we're surrounded by, they can do it.

DR ANDI HORVATH
Obviously retrofitting is a way to go with existing buildings. But what about design of new buildings or these so-called over-designed buildings that you referred to earlier?

DR SEONA CANDY 
Yes, look, I think in the past they didn't have the sophisticated kind of analysis techniques that we have now. So they'd put in a large sort of safety factor I suppose in the building of buildings. So they'd put the bricks together and they'd make sure that that held the roof. But they erred on the side of caution and put more material into the building, which makes it stronger but I suppose less efficient when you're building it. So now our newer buildings are more efficiently designed with less materials. But, as a result, they're not strong enough to hold a rooftop garden. But I mean there are rooftop gardens on newer buildings. So there's one on the new Cancer Centre on Royal Parade. There's ways you can do it without putting loads of soil and causing your building to crumble.

DR ANDI HORVATH
So next time we look at a city from a distance or a high-rise flat, what do you want us to think about?

DR SEONA CANDY 
I want people to think about how they could be different. You know I want people to think about, oh what might that look like with greenery on the roof, what might it feel like inside? There's some amazing - there's actually green roof projects in Balaclava in Melbourne. There was a community, an apartment block, one of these older buildings who put a green roof. It's amazing, it's a beautiful space. I want them to see not just the challenges, I want them to see the opportunities. I think one of the common misconceptions around the area of sustainability and resilience and environmental impact is everyone thinks the changes that we have to make are going to be bad. Whereas I see the changes are going to be really - could be really good if we do them right. I see them as opportunities. An ecocity, a future city, is I think going to be better than what we've already got.

DR ANDI HORVATH
We need to get away from this helicopter, it's following us, I'm innocent. Seona, you mentioned social dimensions. Do you mean connecting us more together as humans and community?

DR SEONA CANDY 
We have an amazing culture in our cities and we don't want to lose that. So whatever technological changes we make for the - so we can maintain our environment, we also need to maintain our culture at the same time.

DR ANDI HORVATH
What are some of the misconceptions in the public that people have about sustainable or resilient cities?

DR SEONA CANDY 
Look, I think people are scared of change in general. But I think they also assume that any changes we're going to make for the good of the environment are going to be bad for the people living in it. Which, to me, it doesn't have to be that way. I see actually the changes we can make will make our city better, a better place to live. I don't know if any of you have seen that cartoon where there's a guy standing up going, oh we'll have clean energy, we'll have water, we'll have blah, blah, blah. Then someone - they talk about taking action on climate change and someone puts up his hand and says, what if it's all a hoax and we create a better world for nothing? It's that kind of thing. All the changes we would make to make our city more sustainable and resilient will also just actually make it a better place. They'll make it a better place if we bring the community along with it. Like I said earlier, you can't just dump a technology in an area, particularly not in a city which already has such a strong culture. You've got to co-design solutions with the people who live in the city.

DR ANDI HORVATH
Now if you're wondering what that funny noise is, we're kicking leaves here in another park. We've just wandered over to Argyle Park here in the city of Melbourne. Seona I'm really glad that you're in charge of the future. I've made you emperor of Australia. What's the first thing you want us to get going on?

DR SEONA CANDY 
I think the first thing we've got to get going on - well kind of two parallel things - we've got to get people on board, we've got to get the buy-in to make changes in a city. Because a city is not just about its infrastructure or its technology, it's about its people. So that's about I suppose getting people on board and showing them that change is for good, not for bad. Highlight all the opportunities and really support and nurture these seeds of change that I mentioned earlier, the seeds that could lead to a better future. So it's community building exercises, but it's also - it's things where people are testing out urban biogas, are they putting it in to power buses, it's food waste initiatives where there's community composting. All sorts of things, these seeds of change.

This new - the Singapore bike share, the Singapore company that's starting that new bike share. What's it called? The oBike or something like that. That's a new initiative, it's a new seed of change. It's going to improve walkability, active transport in the city. So I suppose we've got to look at those seeds and look at them and analyse them and nurture the ones that we think are really going to bring positive change.

DR ANDI HORVATH
You started off life as an engineer, a systems engineer. What good advice were you given by various mentors, or perhaps a book or a film? Also I want to find out what good advice you give to your students. So let's start with you, the early Seona Candy.

DR SEONA CANDY 
Look, I think I was a woman in a male-dominated profession. Early on I remember people saying to me, oh why are you working in that field, you're never going to get a job. Then some wise person - I can't remember who it was - said to me, well, yeah, but if you're doing something you really believe in and you really like, then you're probably going to be quite good at it and then you're probably going to get a job. That's the kind of thing, it's sort of don't let people stop you in your tracks. Everyone - that there are limitations, absolutely, to what - not everyone can do everything. But that's the kind of thing, go well don't let that put you off just yet. Another thing would be to get out of your comfort zone. So I think I did that a lot. Again, not everyone can do it to the extent that I did it by going into the Himalayas in Nepal or Lake Tonle Sap in Cambodia. But I think you can take a couple of risks here and there, get out of your comfort zone, try new things and that's the way you learn and grow.

This is where this, again, links back to this seeds of change thing. There's a whole movement in academia about the experimental city. Where we actually, instead of just sitting back and going, we're not going to do that because it's not going to work, we actually have to try it. We actually have to try it on a small scale and look at how - and if it works, that's the way we learn. Even if it doesn't work, that's the way we learn. We learn what does and what doesn't work. Then we look, if it works, okay let's scale it up, let's change it, let's improve it, let's spread it across the city. So it's that experimentation that I think is going to be really important. We need to take a couple of risks.

DR ANDI HORVATH
So that's your advice to students really, experiment, take some risks and learn from it.

DR SEONA CANDY 
Look, it's my advice to anyone who lives in a city or the people who are making decisions in a city. Try things on a small scale, see if they work, because that builds community, that brings people together to join the conversation around ecocities. Even if the thing you're trying out doesn't work, that builds resilience because you're building adaptive capacity in your city.

DR ANDI HORVATH
Now you spoke about Australia having one of the highest energy uses. What is it with Australia, what's going on?

DR SEONA CANDY 
Well, it's probably more around that we have one of the highest emissions per capita. So overall our emissions footprint isn't huge, but per capita it's quite large. Part of that is that we have a very high-carbon lifestyle, so lots of car transport, we've got lots of fossil fuel energy, all that kind of thing. If we're going to I suppose change our cities for the better, we've got to look at what's going to reduce the carbon footprint of its citizens, and that takes good urban planning.

CHRIS HATZIS
Excellent advice, Seona. Think small. Small footprint. Lay off the carbon. All good stuff. That way we can become happy and healthy citizens in our resilient cities. Thanks to Dr Seona Candy, academic at Architecture, Building and Planning at the University of Melbourne. And thanks to our reporter Dr Andi Horvath. Eavesdrop on Experts - stories of inspiration and insights - is a production of the University of Melbourne, Australia. This episode was recorded on the 20th of June 2017. You'll find a full transcript on the Pursuit website. Audio engineering by Arch Cuthbertson, co-production by Andi Horvath, Chris Hatzis and Claudia Hooper. Thanks also to Belinda Young. And check out the Ecocity World Summit 2017 website. Still curious about the world? I hope you are. Nip on over to our sister podcast, Up Close, which features in-depth and long-form conversations with seasoned researchers across many fields.
I’m Chris Hatzis, producer and editor. Join me again next time for another Eavesdrop On Experts.